Subject: Определенный артикль Помогите пожалуйста, у меня заскок. The delay almost resulted in customer canceling the order. Нужно ли перед customer поставить определенный артикль?
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almost resulted - звучит не очень (тут либо resulted, либо нет - третьего не дано). Лучше, по-моему, использовать модальный глагол. The delay could have caused/resulted in order cancellation by the customer. |
sled +1 however, if you leave the structure as is, then you have it right: "resulted in customer canceling the order" |
Thank you very much. |
"resulted in customer canceling the order" грамматически некорректно правильно: "resulted in customer's canceling the order" |
Вышеприведенная коррекция некорректна |
Kid +1 |
Но лучший вариант предложил(а) sledopyt |
Варианты абсолютно равноценные (отнюдь не умаляя ничьих достоинств) |
Что б ты понимал, уродец. |
Ну так чего с артиклем-то? |
Угу, спроси славянина об артикле... Но все зависит от кустомера, если он в контексте один-единственный и конкретный, то да, а если обрисовывается ситуация в целом, то пожалуй нет. |
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link 28.02.2009 9:39 |
SirReal "resulted in customer's canceling the order" - это вообще на каком языке? турецком?? |
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link 28.02.2009 9:40 |
*апостроф |
Плохо вы грамматику учили. http://grammartips.homestead.com/possessivewithgerund.html Внизу список правильных и неправильных вариантов. |
Кас. "Но все зависит от кустомера" - Прям всё? А от того, где и кем эта шняга писалась? Может, в Китае. Или в Польше. А может, в мадьярской части Словакии. Во где перлы выдают! |
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link 28.02.2009 10:02 |
SirReal, Начнем с того, что cancelling с двумя l пишется. Ваш вариант невероятно коряво звучит, уж праститэ. |
1. Правописание: есть оба варианта. Dictionary: can·cel (kăn'səl) 2. Я для аскера отметил грамматическую ошибку (переводить я бы так не стал). Но по собственно грамматике у Вас есть какие-нибудь аргументы? Если нет, признайте это. |
"cancelling с двумя l пишется" ... "Спокойствие, ТОЛЬКО спокойствие!" (с) Mike you know what 'hater base' is? :) |
When the noun preceding the gerund is plural, collective, or abstract, use the common form of that noun, not the possessive. 1. Professor Villa was amazed by her students working as hard as they did. |
Отлично. Не подходит в данном случае, т.к. клиент конкретный. |
кто сказал? |
the order - конкретный заказ, конкретный заказчик |
Согласен. Ладно, всё, уймись. |
2 Sjoe Ya betcha! And I love each one of 'em way more than all my fans combined! |
A мона и так: "in a customer [of ours] cancel(l)ing HIS order." :)) Коньтекст, кароче. |
Breathing down my neck Mike,you. Broads here hate my guts and would love see me assed out. :) |
Если оставить исходную формулировку "The delay almost resulted in customer canceling the order", то: 1) апостроф желателен, но не обязателен; 2) определённый артикль перед customer будет лишним, т.к. он уже стоит перед order, тем самым определяя и customer. А лучше, конечно, предложение сформулировать по-другому. |
Ага - желательным для тех, кто пишет правильно. Если Вам пофиг, пишите как угодно - все равно ведь поймут! |
Относительно: When the noun preceding the gerund is plural, collective, or abstract, use the common form of that noun, not the possessive. 1. Professor Villa was amazed by her students working as hard as they did. Думаю, что примеры коллеги Kid взяты из какого-нибудь электронного учебника/справочника по грамматике не британского происхождения. Может американского ... . Это один из, так называемых, "dubious cases".Т.е. все три примера нельзя считать однозначно "gerundial constructions". |
Аскер, а Вы просто письмо составляете? А почему не написать кондово, но понятно - as a result of the delay, the customer was about to cancel the order? И "как огурец" подобное же предложил (только без запятой). |
вот еще... масела в огонь такссать ))) хехе http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/028.html#GERUNDANDPOS gerund and possessives (fused participle). Some people insist that when a gerund is preceded by a noun or pronoun, the noun or pronoun must be in the possessive case. Accordingly, it is correct to say I can understand his wanting to go, but incorrect to say I can understand him wanting to go. But the construction without the possessive, sometimes called the fused participle, has been used by respected writers for 300 years and is perfectly idiomatic. Moreover, there is often no way to “fix” the construction by inserting the possessive. This is often the case with common nouns. Thus you can say We have had very few instances of luggage being lost, but not … of luggage’s being lost. |
yeah yeah yeah I know... not REALLY a dictionary or a grammar book... |
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link 28.02.2009 19:43 |
The ORIGINAL sentence is CORRECT but needs an article before CUSTOMER: i.e. resulted in the customer cancel(l)ing the order Dear SirReal, you write the following. правильно: "resulted in customer's canceling the order" This is grammatically INCORRECT and completely wrong. There is no need for an apostrophe + S ('s) here. The original sentence was not incorrect as you said, but was correct. I am a NATIVE English speaker, TEACHER of English and TRANSLATOR. Trust me, I am correct, irrespective of any links to grammar websites or quotes from grammar books you may post here. |
I'd hold comment Mike. |
Who's Mike? 8) |
Thanks Sjoe, I can hold my own. Adam, can you actually construct an argument or am I supposed to be awed by your using CAPS? |
adamrhaynes'а аскеру сам Бог послал; жаль только, что он до евоного поста не дочитает - плюнет и напишет, как было. lmao |
Dear adamrhaynes! Do you mean that there is no need in following grammar rules? Native speakers rather often create their own mode of language despite basic grammar rules or just ignoring some of them. |
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link 28.02.2009 20:16 |
I don't really understand why such rudeness is necessary. I don't expect anyone to be awed by the use of capital letters, they merely serve as a means of highlighting certain points that I feel are important - if I had the use of underline or bold I would use those instead. I am merely answering a question in a forum thread - about a language that happens to be my native language. As I far as I can see, there are mixed responses regarding the grammar in the sentence and by writing what I did, above, I have helped the original poster gain a correct response and have hopefully helped those who have posted grammatically incorrect sentences too - by helping them to avoid making these mistakes again. After all, that is my job. I am sorry if pointing out your mistakes by using CAPS has hurt you in some way. |
Rudeness? Excuse me? As far as I can tell, you signed up on this forum because someone told you about this particular forum topic and asked you to submit a posting to prove me wrong. Your using caps doesn't hurt me - it merely highlights your lack of arguing skills. You have yet to prove anything to me. |
adamrhaynes thumbs up |
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link 28.02.2009 20:24 |
No I'm not saying that there is no need for grammar rules. While native speakers do indeed form their own language in many cases, they still adhere to grammar rules. What I am saying is that the original sentence given is correct, albeit for the exclusion of the article THE. What I am also saying is that an alternative option, amongst numerous ones posted in this thread, is incorrect and should not be used. This is roughly correct: "resulted in customer cancel(l)ing the order" (needs THE) By the looks of it though, it was a mistake posting an answer here in the first place. In future I will not bother to answer. |
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link 28.02.2009 20:34 |
Dear SirReal I construe "Adam, can you actually construct an argument or am I supposed to be awed by your using CAPS?" to be incredibly rude, unnecessary and arrogant. It strikes of someone who has been told that s/he is wrong and does not like it, most likely someone who has a high post count on the forum and does not like a newcomer justifiably challenging his/her responses. I was not attempting to construct an argument, I was merely highlighting two sentences - one as being correct, one as being incorrect. In addition, I was telling you who I am so that you can have an element of trust in the response that I provided. I do not see that I have done anything wrong. I do not see that conducting this disagreement here is useful or constructive - neither for the original poster nor those who are reading and looking for answers. I hope that the information that I have provided has been useful to someone here, but I can clearly see that my help and advice is not welcome. Strange, I thought that this was an open forum. Good evening. |
SirReal пойди убейся апстену |
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link 28.02.2009 20:44 |
Oh, and SirReal, I do not have to prove anything to you, as you say. I know that am I correct, and those here who are not the confrontational type will view the suggestion I made with objectivity and consider it, not merely reject it in a flurry of anger as you have. If you wish to continue to dish out incorrect advice then please be my guest, but you will not be doing yourself, nor others, any justice. |
adamrhaynes, I'm putting out the fuzzy welcome mat for you! Come right in! |
Funny you should say that the original phrasing is correct even as you say it is incorrect. Re-read your first post and see that I'm not making this up. You're not even a Russian-English translator. Admit you came here on someone's tip-off and then we'll talk. |
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link 28.02.2009 21:03 |
I said it was correct except for a missing THE - which is the same as being roughly correct. The point is that it is not incorrect, unlike other sentences, including yours. I am not attempting to start an argument. I felt that I should post something on this topic as there seemed to be an awful lot of discussion on it. I thought some input would be appropriate and even welcomed - I did not expect to come up against a wall, in yourself, preventing me from bringing across a point of view. I'm sorry but I have more important things to do than argue on here with someone that I don't know. Indeed I also have more important things to do than act on a 'tip-off' from someone on a Saturday night - I don't know anyone on this forum, as far as I know, and I wouldn't set out merely to tell someone that they are wrong. I don't understand why someone would tell me to come here merely to argue with you - it doesn't sound like my idea of a fun evening. You are correct in that I am not a Russian-English translator, but then I never said that I was. I am, nevertheless, a translator. Good evening, again, I shall not darken your door again. |
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link 28.02.2009 21:05 |
Vladimir, thanks. You may have put the fuzzy door mat out, but are you then going to pull it from under my feet?! :) lol |
Dear Adam, Ido apologize for our colleague´s arguing. Please stay at our forum. Don't leave! |
SirReal is a Real Sir, a tough nut, you know. :) Adamrhaynes, come again, you are welcome. There is always a lot of fun here on the forum. :) |
So, let's see. I'm supposed to believe it was a stroke of fortune that you wandered in on this topic on a Saturday night despite being a Dutch-English translator and thus having no legitimate interest browsing this Russian-English/English-Russian dictionary forum. Guess I'll just have to stretch my imagination a tiny little bit and give you the benefit of the doubt. You claim my version is wrong. I'll grant you the definite article issue - I actually did not address it in my initial post. But I'm not at all convinced about the possessive. Are these American laywers and scientists as wrong as I am? During 1990 and 1991, approximately 77% to 97% of sales (depending on the type of part) ***resulted in the customer's providing*** a core back to Consolidated. The writer claims as one advantage of this type of rate that this method of determining the rate based upon the load factor and the meter capacity has in many instances ***resulted in the customer's changing*** his method of using the connected load to longer periods, so as to secure the benefit of a smaller Initial Volume and a correspondingly lower average rate. |
Шкипер... Are you for real? I'm out for hire! :) |
:0) |
...interested in the teacher's viewing the russian persistence... |
Perseverance, sis ;) They call it different elsewhere, though :) |
Let it be the same, broth. :) |
JKitten, называть человека бульоном неприлично :) |
:))) Уж оч. хотелось brother как-нибудь сократить, о бульоне не думала. :) Я думаю, он оценил. SirReal, как хорошо, что я хоть не Вас так назвала. :) |
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link 28.02.2009 22:40 |
Bro/bruv/brotha. :) |
Оценил, bro (c) Earl |
Спасибо, ребята, а то историю англ. языка я уже подзабыла. Я просто преподаватель английского (и немецкого), занимающийся переводами дабы выжить. |
2 JKitten Интересно, можно ли то же самое сказать про Адама?.. Хо-хо :) |
SirReal, только не идите в учителя. :) Там обычно лингвистические таланты деградируют, к сожалению... |
А Адама Вы уже так напугали, что он вряд ли вернётся. :) |
Кукушка хвалит петуха за то, что хвалит он кукушку |
Time for your dirt nap, little boy. Go. |
No, I'm not going anywhere, I'm here to stay. You go. Go pop some poppers |
Oh, you wanna stick it out? Give me the little finger sign? |
It might result in your loving it too much |
or canceling the order |
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link 1.03.2009 0:36 |
I do not know whether or not you are a native English speaker or not, I suspect you are not, but either way you really do have a lot to learn in terms of how to conduct yourself when using English. I'm sure you sit there in front of your computer (3.12am - how very sad) thinking that you are untouchable, and indeed, in front of a computer you are. But in the real world, with real people as opposed to cyber people, i.e. names in forums, I daresay you would not fare well. Talking like someone from an American film (or movie if you prefer) does not impress me, nor does it earn you respect. Remember that - respect is earned. Cheap gags and one-liners do not earn respect. You are clearly a person who is very competent in the English language, and for that I commend you, I wish that I had the same command of Russian. However, I would suggest that you take a good look at yourself and try and decide the way in which you think you should conduct yourself, and the attitude that you should pursue, you are incredibly rude and arrogant. You think that, just because you have a high number of posts in this forum, you are the boss and that whatever you say goes. Well maybe online, but in the real world, I'm sorry but that is not the case. I doubt you will take any notice of these words, you will, as seems to be your custom, cast them off in a rant of aggression just like you do everything else that someone says, because let us not forget you are SirReal. Well I can think of many other words to use and I really suggest that you brush up on your English 'politeness' skills because they are seriously lacking. I suspect you actually revel in all of this, sitting there at your computer in the wee sma' hours, knowing that no-one knows you and that you can say what you like. You make my blood boil. "Little boy?" - grow up please. There is no-one smaller here than you. |
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link 1.03.2009 0:37 |
To firstly address your suspicion regarding my presence in this forum: I must say that your ability to google my username is impressive. Yes I am indeed a Dutch translator, that is no secret. It is also irrelevant, as is my reason for being here. However, what I also am is someone who is learning Russian and in searching for items of terminology that my humble dictionary could not provide, I happened upon your forum. I know enough of your language to understand what is going on here and thought, in my capacity as an English teacher, it would not be wrong to post a response to this thread. It was, after all, at the top of the list when I visited, naturally that is the first thread one opens. Nevertheless, my business here is a) irrelevant and b) none of your business. Now to address the more important matter of this sentence. I have spent some time thinking about this, in addition I have consulted the "Practical English Usage, Swann - OUP 2005" grammar book in order to be doubly sure. I grant you half a point. I will revise my INCORRECT to ROUGHLY CORRECT. Your quotes from various googled sources are not incorrect in the slightest, well done. However I still cannot accept your suggestion as being right, because it is not. Your problem is the article. You admit yourself to not having addressed this and having reviewed your posts this is a fundamental error on your part. While any sentence in which an article is missing remains understandable, it is not right. If it were, we would not use articles at all. The rules purtaining to articles are complicated, and I would refer you to a comprehensive grammar if you wish to check. So I can accept the sentence 'resulted in customer cancelling the order' because it is quite clear that an article is lacking. However the sentence 'resulted in customer's cancelling the order' I cannot accept due to its ambiguity. You see, this sentence introduces the possibility of 'customer' being plural, which it is not. Many people, native English speakers included, insert apostrophes incorrectly and your sentence could very easily be read as 'customers', merely with the apostrophe inserted incorrectly. This would therefore render the translation incorrect. Excluding the article makes your sentence, SirReal, incorrect, roughly correct - however you prefer, but I am sorry - it is NOT correct. That is the difference between your sentence and those that you have quoted. You cannot deny that your sentence lacked this vital article, whether that was intentional or not. Your initial post states: "грамматически некорректно" but your sentence, if we accept that the original is grammatically incorrect, is as "грамматически некорректно" as the original. However you look at it, and regardless of what I have said prior to this comment, any sentence lacking an important article is, in grammar terms, wrong. The extent to which it is wrong/accepted may vary, depending on the person who is reading it. But both the original and your sentence are incorrect/rougly correct for the same reason. From my position, the incorrect/roughly correct part is the missing article, there is nothing further, in particular reference to your "грамматически некорректно" relating to the original sentence, that is incorrect. I understand that the absence of articles in Russian makes it a somewhat tricky aspect of those languages that use them to Russian speakers. I must point out that this construction using a possessive is not common, and it is much better to use a sentence without it, i.e. 'Resulted in the customer cancelling the order'. Why complicate things? It just gives rise to mistakes. So I grant you half a point, but nothing more. The extent to which the initial sentence is "грамматически некорректно" is the same as that of your own. The only difference is the way in which you have formulated your sentence could lead to there being more ambiguity in its meaning. Either way, both are incorrect/roughly correct but absolutely NOT correct. ****** To all of those who have welcomed me here, many thanks. However given the attitude of others, I have no intention of hanging around. Life is too short for confrontation and I am not interested in participating any longer, it has become clear to me that this forum is more about abusing and mick taking of those who offer genuine advice. Your resident knight does not entertain the idea of allowing me into his realm, and the profound arrogance with which he conducts himself is a canny good reason to bolt. I question though, whether such an attitude would prevail were your knight not sat at a computer in the comfort and safety of his own home. I daresay not. It's very easy to be rude when you don't actually have to meet those to whom you are being rude. So adamrhaynes is signing off. Good night and good luck. Fight arrogance. |
Wow, I got a rant out of you but still no argument. And don't worry, I am polite when I need to be. It's not a matter of using English or Russian. |
Thumbs up, Adam, this is ought to keep him down for a while. We'll miss you. |
Awesome, I got half the point I was looking for. Thanks a lot! And you are very welcome here. See? That was easy. |
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link 1.03.2009 0:51 |
I don't need to make an argument out of it, my reasoning is perfectly clear. Always having the last word eh? You know I'm right that's why, you just can't admit it, too much pride, too big an ego. Just can't let it lie, like a dog with bone. Welcome?! Strange idea of welcome. Over and out .... for good. |
Hey, I admitted my mistake. I was a little rash and uncompromising and foolish at first, but I never said the article wasn't an issue. All your posts before the huge one one had no linguistic reasoning. I did it for you, actually. I made you look in a grammar book and realize the possessive was an option after all. Cool, huh? Granting me half a point was the right thing to do. Now that's it's done, I apologize for my rude comments and I welcome you with open arms. If you wanna hold a grudge at this whole forum because of one little me - well, it's your loss. P.S. Oh, and when I'm not splitting hairs about English grammar and usage at 3 in the morning, I'm WORKING. I never denied you the right to choose your sleeping schedule, did I? |
Ну млииин... пошло-поехало.... Peeps... cool it, will ya? :) peace. |
Ok... just to "put it out there"... lol... I just asked my husband who is a) a native speaker of English and b) a professional journalist and c) knows enough Russian to "qualify" to be on this forum even though it doesn't really matter since we are dealing with the_English_ grammar in this particular case. So... his response is 100% in sync with Adam's (although it means that I was wrong in my advice --- MAJOR blushing!). Without even blinking twice, he said: "... resulted in THE customer canceling the order" (sorry, I tried to type "cancelling", but my yankee spellchecker flagged it as "wrong" hehee )) ) So, just to double-check, I asked: "not customer's cancelling"? He said: "well, it depends... if there's more than one customer..." I rest my case. ))) |
(continued) My point being... Sometimes (language issues included) there's more than one correct answer. So jsut try to accept that someone else might be as correct as you are (or... maybe even "more correct" than you are!), you'll be a happier man/woman for it... |
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link 1.03.2009 7:07 |
Wow, I nearly fell of my chair!!! +66 comments since my last visit! 2 SirReal, I am amazed by how good your English is (not just Turkish then, eh?) and I'm raising my hat. I hope I can be as good as you one day. It's just a shame that you have now scared a real native away :'((( |
Hey, I'm sorry. I got a little carried away. I mean, it looked damn obvious that someone invited Adam here just to put me down. It was his first post, and Google showed he was not a Russian-English translator, so I got suspicious. And c'mon, the CAPS thing was ridiculous - for someone who puts Internet etiquette on a pedestal like Adam apparently does. For anyone who wants to pick on my typos, I will point them out myself. "laywers," "one one," "that's it's" and possibly a few more. Also, when I said "Re-read your first post and see that I'm not making this up," I was wrong - Adam never said that (but he did get mixed up with his correct/incorrect/roughly/also correct rankings later on). |
Kudos to Adam! Всё это описывается в Longman'e, among others. ОЧЕНЬ (**** the netiquette!) ЖАЛЬ, что интеллигентному, грамотному, деликатному нейтиву оказали такой радушный приём. 20/20 hindsight is okay, but it's better safe than sorry. "If a man be gracious and courteous to strangers, it shows he is a citizen of the world" (Francis Bacon). |
this fella (our dear sir) is the only one who didn't notice he got smacked down. everybody else knows this |
2 Kid Eat shit and die you stupid cunt |
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link 2.03.2009 17:21 |
Hey, it's прощеное воскресенье!!! Peace, guys! |
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